Ahttps://dsipaint.com/forum/thread.php?id=16022/storage/emulated/0/HTTrack/Websites/DSiPaint/dsipaint.com/forum/threade414.htmlhttps://dsipaint.com/forum/topic.php?id=8/storage/emulated/0/HTTrack/Websites/DSiPaint/dsipaint.com/forum/threade414.html.zxT/d@YU!qOKtext/htmlUTF-8gzip裰!qThu, 06 Apr 2023 23:23:52 GMTPXG°F T/d"!q Bulletin Boards - Thread: Ways to improve my Alternative Pokemon Tiering System
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Ways to improve my Alternative Pokemon Tiering System

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Started by Draconid_Jo
21 Mar 2020 11:21
Avatar By Draconid_Jo (85)
On 21 Mar 2020 12:08

OK, first of all, I'd like to apologize to all of the Competitive Pokémon Players here, for being overly defensive (and at times confrontational) about my Alternative Pokémon Tiering System.
(I'd also like to thank those who supported it as well, though.)

Anyway, rather than defending my (WAY too BST based) Tiering System, I created this Thread to discuss it, and the different ways I could improve it.

To be clear, I'm NOT dead set on the idea of a BST based Tiering System, it's just that that was the simplest way of creating a Tiering System that possesses the characteristics that I want in my Tiering System, which are:

1. Consistency with GAME FREAK's "2 Tier System"



2. Equality



3. Timelessness



Anyway, I'm pretty much flexible on everything else, and I'm willing to consider WAY more than Stats.

In fact, when checking the BSTs of a few different Pokémon (including Gengar, and Ferrothorn), I became dissatisfied with the way my own Tiering System classified these Pokémon, which is the primary reason I'm doin this RN.

I made lists of the Pokémon currently in the 4 highest Tiers (although IDK much about Gen 8, which means they might be missing some Gen 8 Pokémon), and put links to these lists in my Tiering System Blog.

I'm open to almost any suggestion that doesn't go against the 3 principles U mentioned above, and TBH, although it'd be difficult, I'm also willing to consider multiple different Tiering Systems, for the different Battle Formats.
(One for Singles, one for Doubles, one for Triples, one for Rotation Battles, and one for Battle Royals.)

Anyway, sorry for the speech, lol! :[
(I just wanted to make sure that I didn't leave out anything important.)
……想像力が 足りないよ —伝承者ヒガナ
Avatar By Finrod (331)
On 21 Mar 2020 16:10

There isn't much to say though, and technically you can apply the Kyurem black thing to every pokemon. Well I'm just here to help so. Have you considered moving up pokemon with very OP hidden abilities? Particularly serperior who is very famously known to sweep entire teams with contrary leaf storm which boosts its attack by 2 stages every time he uses it.
Avatar By Draconid_Jo (85)
On 21 Mar 2020 16:34

The distinguished Finrod spake:

There isn't much to say though, and technically you can apply the Kyurem black thing to every pokemon. Well I'm just here to help so. Have you considered moving up pokemon with very OP hidden abilities? Particularly serperior who is very famously known to sweep entire teams with contrary leaf storm which boosts its attack by 2 stages every time he uses it.


Actually, I thought of doing just that to a number of different Pokémon.

Dedode mentioned that Greninja would be PT in my current System, and while I'd like to keep all of the (non-Mega Evolved) Fully Evolved Starter Pokémon in PT, I could bump up Protean Greninjas, Contrary Serperiors, and (possibly) Ash Greninja to DT.
(That'd be the same Tier as the Pseudos, which seems about right.)

Also, I was considering bumping Multiscale Lugias to UT, although that'd be a little awkward because of the whole "Equality" thing.
(Unless I raised Regenerator Ho-ohs to UT, as well.)

What do you think?
……想像力が 足りないよ —伝承者ヒガナ
Avatar By StarLien7 (1)
On 21 Mar 2020 23:06

Aaaa I don't understand anything.lol
"All things come to an end. There is a beginning, a turning point, then the end. This is the end."
Avatar By Dedode (311)
On 22 Mar 2020 15:01

Well, where do I start?... At first when you made the tiering system I though it was ok cause it's some sort of measuring power. But you went to far dividing the tiers, it's so confusing, it's almost like taking Smogon tiering system and dividing it even more. Simply put, imagine someone making a PT team, he would have to constantly check the list to see the appropiate abilities and items in the respective generation to play accordingly to the tier. To tedious in my opinion.
This is the main reason why on Smogon there isn't a division of pokemon that cant use baton pass and others that can, they simply ban the move so its less confusing.
Another aspect to look at is the purpose of this tier list. Smogon tiering system goes by popularity of the pokemon used on competitions in a way that excludes any Pokemon centralizing the main tiers, so more Pokemon can be used instead of just a bunch.
As much as I like the idea of an alternative to the main tiering systems we have to admit that creating one that actually works is not an easy task for this little community. You can instead create certain rules to play around like battle formats, I think that would be simplier for everyone.
Israel's not a legitimate state.
Avatar By Draconid_Jo (85)
On 25 Mar 2020 17:41

The distinguished Dedode spake:

Well, where do I start?... At first when you made the tiering system I though it was ok cause it's some sort of measuring power. But you went to far dividing the tiers, it's so confusing, it's almost like taking Smogon tiering system and dividing it even more. Simply put, imagine someone making a PT team, he would have to constantly check the list to see the appropiate abilities and items in the respective generation to play accordingly to the tier. To tedious in my opinion.
This is the main reason why on Smogon there isn't a division of pokemon that cant use baton pass and others that can, they simply ban the move so its less confusing.
Another aspect to look at is the purpose of this tier list. Smogon tiering system goes by popularity of the pokemon used on competitions in a way that excludes any Pokemon centralizing the main tiers, so more Pokemon can be used instead of just a bunch.
As much as I like the idea of an alternative to the main tiering systems we have to admit that creating one that actually works is not an easy task for this little community. You can instead create certain rules to play around like battle formats, I think that would be simplier for everyone.


Not really.

I mean, I get your point, but at present, there are so few things other than BST and Legendary Status that affect a Pokémon's Tier, that it's still pretty simple.

To simplify it, think of the Tiers like this:

UT and LT are simply my attempt to divide the Battle Frontier Banlist ("UN", as I now call it) into 2 separate Tiers.

For example, Black and White Kyurem are UT, while regular Kyurem is LT.

Dawn Wings Necrozma, Dusk Mane Necrozma, and Zygardes with Power Construct are UT, while regular Zygarde 50% Formes and Necrozmas are LT.
(Regular Zygarde 10% Formes are AT RN, due to their low BST.)

As for the idea of applying certain restrictions on Abilities (aside from Power Construct), that's still up in the air RN, but when talking about HA Pokémon, there are some that have obviously OP HAs, and I'm willing to make special Rules regarding them.

It doesn't make it that complicated unless you have a ton of HA Pokémon, either, which (as a person who plays the regular games, and hasn't done anything on Showdown) doesn't seem to complicated to me.
(Not to mention I'll be finishing those lists of what's in each Tier, eventually.)

The main things of importance (to me) are being consistent with GAME FREAK's System (which means that the division between LT and MDT is sacred), and the timelessness aspect.

If you battled with a certain Pokémon in Gen 4, it'll be in the same Tier in Gen 8, provided that you don't utilize some new aspect of Gameplay that increases it's EBST dramatically, like Mega Evolution, or Eviolite.
……想像力が 足りないよ —伝承者ヒガナ
Avatar By Draconid_Jo (85)
On 18 Apr 2020 13:58

Well, my Tier lists are now complete, so now everyone can actually see what all is in each Tier, rather than having to look up BSTs constantly to do so, lol!

Additionally, I changed the names of a few of the Tiers (PT is now HT, AT is now ST, and WT is now NT), to make them sound more like the names of the Contest Ranks (among other things) in-game, and adjusted the Tier classifications of many Pokémon as I was going along, putting them up or (rarely) down a Tier from where the BST would place them.
(These Pokémon are marked with an "*" in the lists.)

I'll eventually mark all of the Pokémon whose current Tier classifications I'm uncertain about (or perhaps just make a list of them), especially all of the non-Evolving Pokémon currently in NT that I'm considering bumping down to BT because of their low BSTs.
……想像力が 足りないよ —伝承者ヒガナ
Avatar By Draconid_Jo (85)
On 04 May 2020 12:53

Well, after seeing what I flop that Tiering System comparison blog was, it probably seems foolish to still compare my System to Smogon's, but I'm going to, anyway.

This is what I believe would be a reasonable comparison of the Tiers in my System to the ones in Smogon's based upon what little IK about their System:
UT = Anything Goes

LT = Ubers

MDT/DT = OU

HT = UUBL/UU

ST = RUBL/RU

NT = NUBL/NU

BT = PUBL/PU/ZUBL/ZU
Anyway, those comparisons are probably off, but I think that they're probably close to accurate, at least.

Like I told one of my friends here recently, though: Comparing my Tiering System to Smogon's is kinda like comparing Applins to Oran Berries, because although both are delicious looking, one is a Pokémon, and the other is a Held Item, so you can't really compare the 2.

My System is a static one, consistent across all generations, and is entirely based on Pokémon's Legendary/Mythical Status, BSTs, EBSTs, and power checks, and usage never even enters the equation.

Smogon's System, by contrast, is primarily usage based (as evidenced by their Tier names), and is constantly trying to adapt to an ever-changing metagame, rather than remain consistent like mine is.

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to view my System as an alternative to the very same 2 Tier System I based it off of, instead.
(I suspect that it would be better received that way by Competitive Players, lol!)

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Oh, and I corrected the Soul Dew thing for Gen 7 & 8, as well as bumped up all of the Gen 8 Fossil Pokémon to DT.
(Because of the Fishious Rend/Bolt Beak thing, mostly.)

Lastly, I'm planning on (with some help from Mom) trying to create accounts at some other (more Pokémon-centric) websites, with the hopes that I can submit my Tiering System there, as well. :)
(We'll see how that goes, though.)
……想像力が 足りないよ —伝承者ヒガナ
Avatar By DCTheGamr (448)
On 12 Jan 2022 06:11

This seems cool. Can't wait until it is fully made (if it isn't already and maybe even improved).
Paint Needs To Be Greater More Than Ever Before, Angela L
Avatar By Draconid_Jo (85)
On 23 Jan 2022 15:48

The distinguished DCTheGamr spake:

This seems cool. Can't wait until it is fully made (if it isn't already and maybe even improved).


Well, it is sort of already fully made (in the sense that it could already be used by people if they wanted to), but I am trying to improve it still, and work on blogs directly comparing my tiering system to Smogon's, so that I can FINALLY understand all of the (apparently pretty inaccurate) nonsense that @Finrod used to spout at me to convince me that Smogon's tiering system was infallible.
(He went to great lengths to convince me that Galarian Farfetch'd was equal to Virizion, but he just couldn't do it, lol!)
……想像力が 足りないよ —伝承者ヒガナ
Avatar By DCTheGamr (448)
On 24 Jan 2022 03:10

The distinguished Draconid_Jo spake:
Well, it <span style="text-decoration:underline">is</span> sort of already fully made (in the sense that it could already be used by people if they wanted to), but I am trying to improve it still, and work on blogs directly comparing my tiering system to Smogon's, so that I can FINALLY understand all of the (apparently pretty inaccurate) nonsense that @Finrod used to spout at me to convince me that Smogon's tiering system was infallible.
(He went to <a href="/blog?id=99058" rel="nofollow">great lengths</a> to convince me that <a href="https://www.smogon.com/dex/ss/pokemon/farfetch'd-galar" rel="nofollow">Galarian Farfetch'd</a> was equal to <a href="https://www.smogon.com/dex/ss/pokemon/virizion" rel="nofollow">Virizion</a>, but he just couldn't do it, lol!)
Oh glad it is still kinda useable now. Can't wait for improvements xD
Paint Needs To Be Greater More Than Ever Before, Angela L
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